Scott Horton's going on the offensive, for example, alleging that Greg Miller of the Los Angeles Times got punked. Apparently, there are "renditions," then there are "extraordinary renditions," and never the twain shall meet:
There are two fundamental distinctions between the programs. The extraordinary renditions program involved the operation of long-term detention facilities either by the CIA or by a cooperating host government together with the CIA, in which prisoners were held outside of the criminal justice system and otherwise unaccountable under law for extended periods of time. A central feature of this program was rendition to torture, namely that the prisoner was turned over to cooperating foreign governments with the full understanding that those governments would apply techniques that even the Bush Administration considers to be torture. This practice is a felony under current U.S. law, but was made a centerpiece of Bush counterterrorism policy.This is pure bull of course. Not even Hilzoy's painstaking attempt to deflate the issue can hide the key point: Barack Obama will preserve a central anti-terrorism tool that served as the key antiwar cudgel to demonize the Bush administration as the reincarnation of the Third Reich.
The earlier renditions program regularly involved snatching and removing targets for purposes of bringing them to justice by delivering them to a criminal justice system. It did not involve the operation of long-term detention facilities and it did not involve torture. There are legal and policy issues with the renditions program, but they are not in the same league as those surrounding extraordinary rendition. Moreover, Obama committed to shut down the extraordinary renditions program, and continuously made clear that this did not apply to the renditions program.
It does not matter what it's called: The ideological left - on principle - considered torture AND enemy rendition as one and the same. For the past seven years the nihilists have excoriated the "evil BushCo" regime for its state-sponsored terror-regime, but now that the policy shoe's on the other foot, it's time for the left to parse and twist itself out of hypocritical jam. Andrew Sullilvan's the worst. In a post last year, two days after Obama was elected, he cites Alex Massie, who is quoted saying:
The Iraq War was ... unpopular across much of the world, but its Guantanamo and rendition and secret CIA prisons around the world that have done far more damage to the United States' reputation.To the left, it's obviously all of a piece, which is why the hordes of the nihilist fever swamps, as noted, are working overtime to square the new administration's policy with the Democratic campaign's outlandish promises from all last year.
As QandO shows (citing Progressive Justice), Human Rights Watch, the leading progressive NGO for international human rights, called for a blanket abolition of the Bush administration's policy of enemy rendtions. The group called on the U.S. government to "repudiate the use of rendition to torture as a counterterrorism tactic and permanently discontinue the CIA's rendition program ..." But according to Greg Miller's report at the Times, Human Rights Watch now says under "limited circumstances, there is a legitimate place" for renditions.
The problem is that those "limited circumstances" are in essence simple assurances by the Obama administration that the U.S. will not render suspected terrorists abroad if the possibility for coercive interrogation exists. It's a classic double standard. CIA Director Michael Hayden guaranteed in 2007 that the U.S. was not rendering suspected terrorists to foreign governments for torture. He said renditions were being conducted "lawfully" and "responsibly," which is now what leftists say the Obama administration will do with its continuation of the previous government's policy.
Andrew Sullivan, who has gone through fits of hysteria over the Bush adminstration's "torture" policies, pulls a play out of Hayden's book when he says:
What some on the far right seem not to grasp is that opposition to torture is not about being soft on terrorism. It is about being effective against terrorism - ensuring that intelligence is not filled with torture-generated garbage, that we retain the moral high-ground in a long war against theocratic violence, and that we can better identify, capture, kill or bring to justice those who threaten our way of life. Rendition and temporary detention are tools in that effort - tools that now need to be as closely monitored and assessed as they were once recklessly abused.These people are not only hypocritically bankrupt, but their comprehensive program of leftist relativism is designed to destroy this country. Now that Barack Obama's in power the left can do no wrong. Bush hatred has been transformed to Obamessianism. Those on the "far right" will be demonized and ostracized for their previous policies, facts and logic be damned. Meanwhile, previously reviled policies will be continued.
It's a shameful situation we're in with the Democrats, but to be expected after the most dishonest media-enabled Democratic presidential campaign in history.
The renditions are easy to figure out. It is wrong when done by a conservative and OK when done by a leftist. Being progressive means you never have to explain or apologize.
ReplyDeleteI would like to offer a proposition to every right-winger reading Don's blog today (and you as well, Don): I say we make shoprat's played out, generic "that's an easy one, Professor: it's always wrong when Republicans/ conservatives do it and always right when leftists/ atheists/ nihilists/ homosexuals/ liberals/ leftards do it" type of comment a permanent fixture of this site.
ReplyDeleteMaybe Don could http it into a widget below his banner or you could all get t-shirts made and then take pictures of yourselves wearing them for your avatars; whatever works to keep it front and center. This would save each of you about 15-30 seconds of typing time on a comment thread everyday and I and the rest of the political spectrum wouldn't have to reread this rhetorical masturbation over and over again in lieu of reasoned points and intellectual debate.
Talk amongst yourselves and get back to me. Consider my breath baited.
Seeing that Czarboni has forbidden the term "War On Terror" and changed it to "Enduring Struggle Against Terrorism", what will he call Rendition?
ReplyDeletePlease take note of my new web site location.
Thanks.
It took the President Obama a few seconds to realize that his first job is to protect Americans; his second job is to protect Americans; and his third job is to protect Americans.
ReplyDeleteHe will end up doing what he has to do to protect Americans and screw what the left wing thinks. If he fails Americans will run him right out of that big house real fast.
I just think the creativity of the left is just outstanding. I truly admire the convincing redefining of terms...but it gets comical too.
But, they understand that when "rendition" is imposed we are not just sending a terrorist to another peaceful venue. The truth is that someone is getting the crap knocked of them til they talk.
Thanks Professor for calling them on this.
"This would save each of you about 15-30 seconds of typing time on a comment thread everyday and I and the rest of the political spectrum wouldn't have to reread this rhetorical masturbation over and over again in lieu of reasoned points and intellectual debate."
ReplyDeleteOr,JBW, you could just quit lurking around, ready to pounce on every comment that is made, so that you can ridicule every statement that doesn't measure up to your perceived intellectualism on any, and all, issues.
Maybe, you could find a blog that you could consider your equal to your infinite wisdom and knowledge of all things, and hang out there.
And yes, I'm posting as Anonymous, because I don't want you bugging the living daylights out of me..'though, I'm sure that you would consider it beneath you to do so.
Yawn.
i am so ashamed of our country now...i hope there will be a written record of this...but i'll never expect it to be in my grandchilrens' textbooks at school (when i get grandchildren!)
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteDr. D, I thought you'd be happy that the US is going to continue to grab potentially innocent people off the street and send them to be tortured in little Hell-holes. And for good measure deny them any of the basic legal rights extant since the Magna Carta. There's just no pleasing some people.
ReplyDeletePersonally, I like to believe that what Hilzoy wrote is a rational analysis of how Obama plans to conduct renditions. It may just be that the rendition program is going to be continued, but in a way that is in accord with LAWS and TREATIES and done competently.
And Brother JBW, do you see it as I do? Sort of like this:
Donald Douglas: My mind is aglow with whirling, transient nodes of thought careening thru a cosmic vapor of invention.
Shoprat: Ditto.
Donald Douglas: "Ditto"? "Ditto," you provincial putz?
I love this place! I've left literally hundreds of comments on this site with many links back to my own and I'm still called a "lurker" by some spineless weasel who posts as Anonymous because they don't want to be bugged, which I translate to mean "I can't adequately defend or debate my own ideas without calling you names and dismissing you and I know you're going to call me out on it so I'm hiding like a little bitch".
ReplyDeleteRight-wing coward. I'm one of the few people commenting on this site who doesn't hide behind a clever nickname or cute little avatar: that's my pretty face and my real full name on my profile page. Come to the little town of Danville, CA. I'll gladly debate politics and every other subject under the sun with you over a beer or I can just fight you in the parking lot if you so choose; my nuts are just as big in real life as they are here.
And if you want to characterize my intellectualism as "perceived" act like a man, say it to my face and defend it. On that note, I suppose that it would be a waste of time explaining the irony of some gutless intellectual midget choosing the post partially titled "Leftist Hypocrisy" on which to anonymously accuse me of lurking. "Yawn", indeed.
The only reason I even found this blog was because Don came to my site and commented to me first, I was merely being polite/curious as to what he was about. Don, if you don't want me here you just say the word and I'm gone for good, dude. I know you at least have some balls.
DLB, you make Don sound like he's been eating shrooms but good looking out just the same, brother.
Oh and Norm, the president's first and only job is to "preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States". Saying that your job is to protect Americans while you wipe your ass with the Constitution is considerably less than patriotic, and I think fear of terrorism has made a lot of people forget that.
"Right-wing coward. I'm one of the few people commenting on this site who doesn't hide behind a clever nickname or cute little avatar: that's my pretty face and my real full name on my profile page. Come to the little town of Danville, CA."
ReplyDeleteRelax, dude. You really aren't that tough. Or cool. No one cares. No need to get everything all in a bunch.
"I thought you'd be happy that the US is going to continue to grab potentially innocent people off the street and send them to be tortured in little Hell-holes. And for good measure deny them any of the basic legal rights extant since the Magna Carta."
Who knew the Magna Carta safe-guarded the rights of foreigners vis-a-vis the "monarch"? I wonder what all that Geneva Conventions nonsense was all about if rights of enemies encountered on the battlefield were already taken care of!... And are you really trying to imply that the rendition program under Bush violated some rights that war-time parties had been recognizing since the 1200's?? Really? The Magna Carta laid out some rights that were unviersally recognized until evil Bush's renditions in the 2000's? Stupid. Think of every war in the last 1000 years. Enemy combatants are routinely treated poorly, or forced in to labor, etc. That includes wars from the last century. Bush's renditions did not "deny any rights" that war-time parties had been routinely recognizing. Bush did not abrogate some rights that everyone had followed since the Magna Carta "until him." That's a falsehood to imply such.
And let's not pretend that Obama's renditions are "ok" because we believe he'll just be a nicer guy than Bush. Bush was not criticized for being "mean" with his renditions. He was criticized for renditions. Period. From Human Rights Watch to most of Europe, renditions were considered illegal - and there was no 'except if they are done nicely' caveat. Trying to defend Obama when he clearly is trying to keep practices that he prematurely criticized as an uninformed and inexperienced 1-year-old Senator, just shows bias.
I'm happy he's keeping them. Don't get me wrong. But it's hypocrisy to criticize Bush and not Obama. Why is it so hard to be honest? I am honestly saying I agree with Obama. Why can't you who excoriated Bush for renditions just say, yeah, I don't agree with my guy on this one. Will it really kill you to admit you don't carry his water on 100% of issues?
Ah, more wisdom from another anonymous commenter with the respect inducing net-handle "PrivatePigg" telling me how not tough and cool I am despite knowing nothing about me. Your arguments are as equally reasoned and intelligent as your brethren's. Imagine the devastation to my considerable ego. Douche.
ReplyDeleteObama is not going to utilize a judicial process. Hilzoy is just wrong equating this with extradition. Still a Flip-Flop: My Fellow Liberals Push Back Against Allegations of Inconsistency Concerning Rendition
ReplyDeleteOh no! You called me a douche! Maybe I should take a page out of your book vis-a-vis 'Anonymous' and go on a 6-paragraph rant about how I'm not a pussy and how you are a coward and come to Iowa where I live, man, and we'll debate any fucking thing you want, man. And don't insult my intelligence, man, Don wants me here, right Don? Oh, God, I'm so hard right now. My nuts are big in real life!
ReplyDelete"Come to the little town of Danville, CA. I'll gladly debate politics and every other subject under the sun with you over a beer or I can just fight you in the parking lot if you so choose; my nuts are just as big in real life as they are here." It's the fucking internet, dude. No one is coming to debate you, obviously, so go ahead and make those silly challenges. Hey, why don't you meet me on the top of a speeding tractor-trailer with nothing but a bow staff and some throwing stars and we'll re-inact the most outrageous scenes from popular movies like the Matrix! But we'll fight to the death, of course. Come on, man, how hard am I to challenge you to that?! That shows how tough I am, right? Because I challenged you to a fight...right?
Your "nuts are just as big in real life"? Did you really just say that? Yeeeeeeeah. I'm a douche. You're right.
PrivatePigg: Yes I want you here. JBW is normally a pretty mellow fellow in the comments, but I think his Obamessianism has messed up the frontal cortex of his brain.
ReplyDeleteAh, "Obamessianism". My BDS seems to have mutated Don, but thank you for the diagnosis. Let's hope my nihilism is in remission as well.
ReplyDeletePP, you're as bad ass as I would expect anyone with a keyboard and an Internet connection to be and of course I won't be coming to debate you...because you live in Iowa. Lucky you. "Midwestern douche" would indeed have been more apt.
I have the tractor trailer set up outside my house but my bow staff is at the cleaners so wait a few days before you head out here. Now go take some pictures of bugs or something.
PP, when I mentioned basic legal rights in connection with the Magna Carta, I was referring to the right to know why the hell you are being detained and placed in a prison cell. I know that it had nothing to do with the treatment of POWs and never said that it did.
ReplyDeleteWe imprisoned people in Afghanistan and Iraq on the basis of nothing beyond the word of those nationals who were working with our forces. Often, this was an opportunity for these locals to satisfy a grudge or collect a bounty. They got no hearings. Those are the basic rights extant since the Magna Carta. The right to know what charges have been levied against you and who your accuser is.
Think of every war in the last 1000 years. Enemy combatants are routinely treated poorly, or forced in to labor, etc. That includes wars from the last century.
Are you saying this has been done by the US in every war, and that it is therefore alright? Sounds like you hate our troops.
"Are you saying this has been done by the US in every war, and that it is therefore alright?"
ReplyDeleteNo, it means everyone has been treating POWs/enemy combatants terribly since the dawn of time. It means, let's not pretend Bush has deviated from some well-recognized world rule that everyone has been abiding by "until Bush." It means, keep comments in perspective. We treat enemy combatants unbelievably better than they have ever been treated in most conflicts, historically speaking, by anyone. That doesn't mean torture is OK, but we can probably tone down the hyperbole, which includes "Magna Carta" references.
Don: My "don't you want me here, Don?" was more of a rhetorical question mocking JBW (he asked the same thing). But I appreciate being wanted!
JBW: Say what you want, you challenged someone to a fight while debating on the internet. And you told us you had big nuts "in real life" like you do on here. I hope you don't think that we all consider you some "big nut badass" on the internet. We don't sit around considering how tough you are on the internet and wondering whether you are "just as tough" in real life. Dumb. Get a life.
PP, I was merely stating that I stand by my convictions both online and in person, that I don't use aliases when I write something or talk shit to someone. Don knows that he can be held to account professionally for things he writes online but he still walks the walk. Flaming threads and insulting people is a lot easier to do anonymously. I doubt your mail is addressed to "PrivatePigg". If that concept is foreign to you that's not my problem.
ReplyDeleteAnd to be clear, I never challenged anyone to a fight. I just said that if I were challenged to fight for something I said and believe that I wouldn't back down. Where I come from that's not the mark of a tough guy, just integrity. You can deny that integrity if you like but as I said you don't know anything about me, plus your opinion of me (and my nuts) is ultimately unimportant.
You are right about one thing though: I need to get a life. I've just spent 24 hours trading barbs with some right-wing moron from Iowa. Good luck with your bugs and shit.
This flip flop by Obama and groups like Human Rights Watch remind me of nothing more than the 1939 Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact between Soviet Russia and Nazi Germany.
ReplyDeleteIn brief; the Soviet Communists proclaimed them selves as the bastion of anti-fascism in the 1920s and 30s. Then, presto, one day Stalin announces "No more! Hitler is now our friend"
The true test of communists all over the world was whether they did the required "double think" to accept the new situation or not.
Obviously leftists such as JBW and Deranged Leftwing Baker are good at DoubleThink.
I think it's obvious that I'm good at a lot of things but maybe that's just me. Tom is smart. You can tell by what he says.
ReplyDeleteObviously leftists such as JBW and Deranged Leftwing Baker are good at DoubleThink.
ReplyDeleteGeorge Bush was the president for 8 years. That gave me 8 years to form an opinion of his actions. Barack Obama has been president for 2 weeks.
Apparently, you guys are a lot smarter than I am because you are totally capable of passing judgment on his presidency based on the events and actions that have taken place over the course of a fortnight.
To my mind, Obama still has a ways to go to be the disaster Bush was. BTW, I'd say a lot of Bush supporters were pretty adept at doublethink, as well.
And PP, don't tell me to tone down the hyperbole when you are writing a paragraph as full of crap as this one:
ReplyDeleteNo, it means everyone has been treating POWs/enemy combatants terribly since the dawn of time. It means, let's not pretend Bush has deviated from some well-recognized world rule that everyone has been abiding by "until Bush." It means, keep comments in perspective. We treat enemy combatants unbelievably better than they have ever been treated in most conflicts, historically speaking, by anyone. That doesn't mean torture is OK, but we can probably tone down the hyperbole, which includes "Magna Carta" references.
Just for instance, during WWI and WWII, the western powers all treated their POWs relatively well. That includes Germany. And it certainly includes the Allied powers. So, isn't the everyone since the dawn of time BS a bit of hyperbole?
Bush did sign executive orders that removed some legal protections from people taken prisoner during GWOT.
Once again, all I was saying with the reference to Magna Carta is that it is recognized by "most" people as the beginning of a move towards the accused having some means to challenge their arrest and incarceration (i.e. basic legal rights). WTF is hyperbolic about that?